My fiance and I have read several online cruise reviews saying that certain cruise companies (Carnival, Royal Carribean, Holland American, Noreweigan) still practice "women and children first" in lifeboat drills and evacuations. We clearly don't want to sail with a line that does this.

I some other postings on here, people have insisted that this isn't true. Does anyone else have information on this?! Honeymoon time is fast approaching. We know there are plenty of boats for everyone, but we don't want to support that kind of policy.

Please respond if you know if this is true on the particular line/ship that you sailed. Thanks!!!

kim

Hi Kim,

there's plenty of space in the lifeboats or liferafts for everybody onboard. This applies to every single ocean-going cruise ship.

The "rumor" that it's still "women and children first" on some lines is highly misleading. You are assigned to a lifeboat through the location of your cabin.

In case of an emergency, all passengers and crew assigned to that lifeboat have guaranteed space onboard. However, when it comes to actually entering the lifeboat some cruise lines ask that women, children and elderly people shall be the first to do so, immediately followed by everybody else. This doesn't put anybody at any additional risk, but it allows the crew members assigned to the lifeboat to ask some "strong guys" for assistance, e.g. in case some injured or disabled persons require help to get into the lifeboat.

Again, this is by no means comparable with the old "women and children first", and in an emergency situation, everybody is treated equally! You really needn't worry about this.

Hope this helps!

Best regards,

Raoul Fiebig
Das Ruderhaus

[This message was edited by Raoul Fiebig on February 12, 2003 at 08:43 AM.]

That is a form of discrimination. That is still so old-fashioned, and my finace and I will not be separated in the lifeboat in the event of an emergency, and if we had kids, we certainly wouldn't want him to be separated from us. Making men stand back and letting everyone else get in, including their families, is not what we call "equal treatment." Would it be equal treatment if it were "whites first"?

Here are quotes cut and pasted from cruise reviews:

"I was almost surprised to learn that it's still women and children first."

"Men were told to stand back against the ship until all others were safely boarded, and then they could board."

Can you tell me exactly what cruise lines practice this policy? This is important to us, and everyone keeps brushing off our concerns, and our wedding is coming up.

Thanks!!

-Kim

it is merely just a form of consideration. ie: Ladies first when going thru a door.
you don't have to worry no one will be seperated. and as the moderator said, there are enough lifeboats/rafts for all. in actuality the total occupency of both lifeboats and rafts together must exceed the total amount of passengers and crew aboard the ship. that is a regulation. so no need to worry, if anything happend that you did get seperated you can rest assured that your husband will not be left on the ship.

Hi Kim,

with all due respect, but I really think you misinterpret this. It's not about being separated, and nobody is separated, if everything works as planned. We are not talking about a procedure where "women and children" are put into the lifeboats and then the crew waits for some time for the men to follow. Jon has raised a good point. It's out of consideration and for practical reasons. In a real emergency (I'm not talking about boat drills) think about elderly, infirm people assisting the crew because all the "healthy men" are already onboard their lifeboats.

Also, from my personal experience, this policy is not typical for some particular cruise lines, but it is treated differently on different ships within a line.

Again, I think you are grossly overrating this policy. Relax and enjoy your honeymoon. It is praiseworthy that you pay this much attention to your safety (I wished more people would do so!), but don't let it spoil some of the most wonderful days in your life.

Best regards,

Raoul Fiebig
Das Ruderhaus

Well, we decided a cruise probably isn't for us, and we're going to Mexico (by plane). Thanks for your honest responses though!

-Kim

Hmm... I kind of have to agree with Kim. That they even make a distinction and make the guys "stand back" seems wrong to me. Can "courtesy" be enforced by a company? If someone wants to do something that they see as "courteous" (and people's definitions may differ), it should be by choice.

It isn't that way in any other transportation medium - just cruise boats (and I wasn't aware that this was happening.)

If Kim is still on here, I would recommend Disney cruise lines. They are the only line I've sailed with (I've been twice) and they never said anything about "women and children first" getting into the boats. In fact, they said something about making sure parents and kids stuck together.

I think it's not so much a safety concern (we know there's enough room for all), as it is a matter of principle, that may bother some.

Just my thoughts. I highly recommend Disney cruises for anyone interested in a great time and cool non-discrimination policies!

-Jason :-)

Thanks for the information! We are going to Mexico, but if/when we do cruise, we'll definately go with Disney lines then.

And yes, it is a matter of principle. Obviously, we know the chances of anything bad happening are miniscule at most.

If anyone else knows of cruise lines that don't practice that, please post them to the group!

Thanks,

Kim

quote:

---

Well, we decided a cruise probably isn't for us, and we're going to Mexico (by plane).

---

I totally agree a cruise is not for you. By the way, when you get to Mexico you will really be able to check on equality there.

Stan

One (hopefully last) comment. My personal feeling is that this is much ado about nothing, as I have NEVER heard anything on a cruise about who goes first or last. And I have been on more than two cruises - 6 all told, on 4 different lines to date.
Karen

I agree with Karen. Have been on 10 cruises with 4 different lines, and nothing was ever mentioned. Most men that had any common decency would make sure that women and children got on the lifeboats first. I know many men who would do this, because they are strong and respectable men, including my husband. If you're such a whimp, you're better off in Mexico. I doubt very much that you'll find equality there,

I am not a wimp, nor is my husband-to-be. Furthermore, that wasn't really called for - this was never intended to be a "heated" debate.

I am saying that I would only be comfortable getting into a lifeboat, in an emergency, with my husband AT MY SIDE, and I'm sure many people would feel the same way.

(And as far as Mexico goes, we're going to a resort community and we're not worried about equality. We're not going to vacation in the streets with the village residents.)

Just because that's what YOUR husband would do doesn't mean everyone else has to do it, has to agree, or that a cruise company should be able to force anyone. Are you a strong respectable WOMAN? Would YOU wait for other people to get in before you did?

From what I can gather, sometimes they tell you about the "women and children first" policy, and sometimes they don't. We're heard it happening on Carnival, Princess, R.C., and Norweigan - not to say ALL of the ships ALL of the time in these companies. We've been told Disney has a specific non-discrimination policy that these other companies apparently don't have. If it ever happened, we would probably BOTH help others into the boats before we got in - but we don't think it's right for a company to MAKE people do anything. You can't value the lives of some customers over others.

I would appreciate no more snide remarks. What's not important to you might be important to someone else. If this isn't an issue for you, then simply don't participate and belittle other peoples' concerns. It happens to be an important issue for us. Our careers are both directly involved in promoting equality.

-Kim

You say that you have heard that Carnival, Princess and Norwegian cruise lines say women and children first. I have been on all those lines and never have heard that. In fact I have heard the staff say there is no such thing as woman and children first on all those lines. I have also sailed Celebrity and there was no mention of women and children first on them either.

If you ever do decide to cruise I wouldn't let comments you read or heard about women and children first bother you. My wife is handicapped and the only time she has not been near me in a lifeboat drill was on Carnival and that is because they allowed her to sit near the boat loading station, I stood in the group of people right across looking at her. There is no doubt I would have been allowed to board a boat with her if necessary if I had wished to or if she wanted me to.

Just from my upbringing I would have waited until women and children first had been accomplished but it would be my choice so I am not saying you would be wrong to board with your spouse.

PEB:

Thanks for your post! Perhaps they are isolated incidents then. Below, I am posting some of the links where we got our information. Please take a look at them and let me know your thoughts.

-Kim

1)
http://www.post-gazette.com/columnists/20000823sam.asp


2) http://whale.wheelock.edu/SAS/SarahLog2.html

3) http://www.jimlaneart.com/Europe/Barcelona1.htm

4) (Norwegian)

http://www.cruisecritic.com/community/memreview.cfm?ID=394

5) http://home.earthlink.net/~porphyrous/alaska/alaskaday1.htm

6) http://www.geographia.com/grandtour/atlantic04.htm

7) (RC International) http://www.sealetter.com/Jun-99/mos399.html

8) (Carnival) http://www.seacruisereviews.com/bydatereview.asp?cruiseid=785

9) (Holland America)
http://web.infoave.net/~opearson/veendam.htm

10) (RCI) http://home.ica.net/~fsatusky/reviews/review_rcgrandeur0797.txt

11) http://www.hldu.org/buzz12c.htm

12) (Carnival) http://webcenter.independenttraveler.netscape.com/travel/cruisecritic/community/memreview.cfm?ID=173

OK I'll stop there, that's a lot to read. As you can see, we got our information from several sources.

-Kim

Kim,

Regardless of the various post you have listed, I have NEVER heard on any cruise I have been on that women and children are first. As I said I have sailed on several cruise lines and multiple times on various cruise lines. I have never even seen them line people up for a lifeboat drill in any order that would make me remotely think that it would be women and children first. I have heard the crew tell people who asked about women and children first, say there is NO such policy as women and children first now days.

As I said in my last post, if you decide to cruise at some point I wouldn't bother considering if there will be a women and children first policy because it won't happen. It would be to time consuming for any cruise ship, especially the mega ships, for the crew to sort by gender and age. If you would have to leave a ship in an emergency the fastest thing for them to do would be just load whoever is next into the lifeboat until it is full and than fill the next boat or raft. Any other way of doing it would just slow up the process of leaving the ship.

Maybe I'm just adding fuel to the fire but I don't really understand your concern about this. I think you've watched "Titanic" too much and think you will lose your husband if anything happened. The chances of this happening are pretty slim, although I know it does happen but you don't read or hear about it often. I think you upset people when you said you wanted to be treated equal and yes, all of us want to be treated equal but like people have said before - it's just doing what you think is RIGHT - you know...using your conscience. If you see an older lady or a small child that's lost her parents - are you going to board the lifeboats and not help these two or are you going to help them on first and then get on??? It's just a quetion of ethics and morality and that's what's wrong with the people in this world today - they have none...they want to sue people for every little thing and it's ridiculous. So...sounds like a cruise isn't for you and that's fine - everyone has choices but you limit your horizons when you don't choose a cruisline based on what position they take on lifeboats!?! Who stinking cares? Anyway...I just think you've read way too much in this and it's silly when you think about it but like you said...this is just my opinion and there is nothing wrong with yours either - I just think you are limiting yourself to some really great cruises if you ever do decide to go on one.

Take care and be safe in Mexico - don't drink the water!

I'm sorry you "don't get it", and yes, you are welcome to your opinion. Like I've said before, it's not really an issue of safety - it's an issue of PRINCIPLE. I also mentioned that he and I would help others into the boats also. Implying that we don't have morality or conscience is not right. And we weren't talking about an old lady or a small child specifically. Actually, I've only seen TITANIC once.

Apparently no one else on this discussion board grasps the concept of what we are concerned with, since I keep saying the same things over and over. We choose not to pay a LARGE sum of money to companies that practice certain policies. It's a matter of principle, and I "don't get" how no one else seems to be able to grasp that. Not saying anyone has to AGREE, but to simply comprehend where we're coming from and not belittle our concerns, would be nice.

And yes, we do choose companies based on little things like that. We "stinkin' care".

(We decided not to go a week or more ago, but I keep logging on just to read the discussions!)

-Kim

I'm sorry if I offended you, I guess I'm just open-minded to these sort of things and it doesn't bother me. But, I can see where you are coming from and I can only suggest that you go to a cruise agency that has some specific rules/guidelines on what their policies are and make a decision from there. But, I think after reading your comments, a cruise on one of the top selling cruiselines is not in your future, correct?

I guess I just don't understand how the lifeboat issue is such a big deal when there are more things in life to worry about. I guess what I'm saying is that if you get that detailed about a company, you would miss the opportunity to live b/c you would be worried about their principles, etc. If we knew half the stuff that happened in companies or organizations, we wouldn't purchase their products or support them. For example, do you watch TV? Well, they make a huge profit from porn. Do you think that's right? If porn is swaying young teens to make a decision to go into that line of business? I mean, I don't really want my little girl to be a porn queen - but yet, I still watch tv. You see what I'm saying. And, I didn't mean to get off on porn - I just saw a tv show recently about how all these big companies profit from porn sells and there's not a lot we can do about it b/c it's so hush hush. But...anyway! Sorry...

But, really, I do hope you have a great honeymoon wherever you choose and congratulations on your marriage. Wish you all the luck!

Thanks for the post. Actually, Disney cruise lines does have a non-discrimination policy, as I was told by a cumstomer service representative, and that applies to all situations, drills and evacuations included. So who knows - maybe on our first anniversary we'll take a Disney cruise!

-Kim

I hate to be the know-it-all, but in this instance it seems appropriate. Muster stations are assigned by cabin numbers. Assuming that you and your spouse will be sharing the same cabin you would also be in the same lifeboat, together. The muster drill (mandated by maritime law) will introduce you to the procedure of ship evacuation should it become necessary.

While there is no question that you and your husband would be in the same lifeboat. It would be your husband's decision as to when he would board the lifeboat. He could be the first in or the last. I guess it would depend on his (or your) compassion for other people stuck in the same panic situation.

I have personally been on over 300 cruises and have never heard the call for women and children first when abandoning ship. However, I would like to think I would be the last one to board a lifeboat after everyone else was safely aboard if the situation ever occurred.

Just my opinion.

Tom