The ongoing example of the Queen Mary in Long Beach may discourage some. It's in bankruptcy now.
It appears many would rather stay in a much larger hotel room at a much lower price than in a small cabin aboard any ship no matter how famous it is, if given a choice.
I don't know of a single instance where a permanently docked passenger ship has been able to make a go of it. I guess you can argue that the Queen Mary has survived, but I'm not so sure she was ever financially viable. Then, of course, there was the Oriana, the Maasdam, the Queen Elizabeth, etc., all of which either went bankrupt or were deemed unfit for repair when nature (storms) came calling.
Seems to me the only financially viable option is to operate the Norway on her remaining boilers as a casino ship as this would keep repair costs to a minimum. As a casino ship, the cruising speed would be a moot point, and therefore, the limited machinery would not be a factor. You would also think that fuel consumption could be more easily controlled in this manner as well. It's not inconceivable that the ship could travel to international waters and basically sit idle until time to return to port. Also, in this new role, the passenger accommodations,as well as required crewmembers (room stewards), would not be as needed, and therefore further reducing operating costs. THe revamped passenger areas could be turned into further gaming areas that could possibly increase her revenues. With her size, she would be somewhat of a first in this area of the world. In any event, at least the ship would be bringing in some $ as opposed to sitting around rusting away.
Posts: 79 | Location: North Carolina USA | Registered: December 29, 2005
Yes, ships are very high-maintenance things that require a lot of care lest they slip into shabbiness. A nearby marine museum had a well-loved ferry presented to them; when another vessel they considered more desirable became available, they "threw away" the ferry -- gave it to a dive club to be scuttled as a dive site! People were disgusted with the museum, obviously, which has since let the second vessel -- a retired coast guard buoy tender/light icebreaker -- deteriorate into an eyesore. More on our main topic, I am hopeful that the ROTTERDAM will be embraced by the Dutch and will succeed as a static display. Let's face it: the QM and QE were never quite as dear to Americans as they were to the Brits, which may explain the vicissitudes of one and the utter failure of the other. The French apparently have come to regard the FRANCE as a lost national treasure (or at least say they have). Maybe mooring her in a French port would be successful. In any case it would test the declarations we hear.
Posts: 292 | Location: Upstate NY | Registered: December 29, 2005
I hear rumours here in Goa that the SS Norway is not sailing to Alang, Gujarat to be scrapped, but has been acquired by a party in Mumbai and is being relocated to Goa to be used as a floating hotel, casino. This I hear from the purchaser. Has anyone any information on this to confirm. I do hope that these rumours are true.
SS Norway/France must be saved/put to good use. In an age where cruise ships look like wedding cakes the Norway shines with her fantastic profile & classic lines.Maybe with her sale price redused she might get a new boiler or be a hotel/casino ship ,anyting is better than the muddy beaches of Alang. She is the last true Atlantic liner, to have her srapped would be a true injustice for future generations.
What are the Norways interiors like at present? she has been in Malaysia for some time now has anything bin changed or removed? apart from her name between her funnels. does she still have a maintenance crew aboard?I know she did at one stage.
Hey there Andrea Doria....(I like the name....my parents sailed on the Doria's sister ship, Cristoforo Colombo, many times)....
Anyway....my "speculation" on the condition of the interior....
As far as the general condition...I doubt anything has changed in the few years she has been "laid up". There is plenty of dust and cobwebs, and I'm sure there must be some sort of "sun damage" to any interior fabric/carpeting/wallpaper, etc. directly exposed to the sun. In general, it is probably like someone turned back the hands of time. The majority of things are exactly in place like they were in May of 2003. After all...it hasn't even been three years since she's been laid up. Perhaps all the cabin beds are bare and mattresses turned up, etc...chairs stacked on top of tables in the bars/resturants/salons...and other general requirements for long term storage...but NCL/Star had all intensions of selling her and the related contents "as is". There was no auction/sale of the contents within the Norway (YET). If sold for scrap, the breakers unload all the items and sell them a-la-carte in roadside stands, or to collectors and historians such as Peter Knego. Peter writes of his visit to Alang a few years ago. He was getting a tour of a beached liner (I forget which one)...and in the distance...he hears piano playing. On the opposite side of the ship, a scrap worker is "trying out" a grand piano left in one of the liner's salons. Amazing what is left behind...what a waste. He also confirms that the contents of many of the passenger liners doomed at Alang look like the day the liner stopped embarking paying passengers. I bought an ottoman from Peter from the ship Franconia, which was beached at Alang in 2004. He was there making his documentary "On the Road to Alang" (very good video by the way) and he brought back two huge container loads (tractor trailer size) of artifacts from the passenger ships beached there at the time. I sailed on Cunard's Franconia from NYC to Bermuda in 1969...and contacted Peter about purchasing one of the ottomans he "salvaged" from her, which was shown on his video being unloaded at his home from the trailers. The ottoman was an original from the 1950's...and stayed on that ship from then, until her demise at Alang in 2004. To me...it is a treasure! Not to promote Peter's website....but he has a great site (www.midshipcentury.com) where you can browse (and purchase) all the "stuff" he's salvaged from the liners beached at Alang he's been able to aquire.
As far as the condition of the interior and the chances reusing the existing ammenities as a liner/hotel/casino/whatever in the future.....
If you have read any of cruisereviews.com actual passenger reviews of the Norway prior to her tragic accident in Miami....you will notice that many of them use the terms "refurbished", "updating", "outdated", "tired" "worn" and so on and so forth. They praise the crew, cuisine, and onboard entertainment.....but as far as the general condition of the ship's interior....it could probably use an overhaul, which, at this stage of the game would be a requirement for any future financial success. As mentioned in previous posts, the least expensive venture would be a floating hotel/casino or permanantly moored tourist attraction...the most expensive, a complete gutting and re-built with a modern cruise-ship interior, while attempting to retain the classic lines of her exterior. Either way would be fine with me.
Posts: 79 | Location: Long Island, New York | Registered: December 30, 2005
Hi there Keith your parents are very lucky to have been able to have had sailed on an Italian Line ship (something i'll never be able to do.) I know to refit her with diesels like QE2 would be costly, she would still have to comply with new solas regs so does that mean every classic ship inc QE2 have to stop sailing or comply? Or would a slow moving casino ship not have to comply.Personally I'd love to be able to cruise on her,as a newly refurbished SS Norway or SS France but if staying on her as a static hotel is what is to come of her than I'll be there.The thing i can't get my head around is the French (they're a patriotic bunch) get so teary at the thought of thier beloved France going to scrap, yet no one there is ready to do anything about it, to see her moored at LeHarve like she was originally intended would be so fitting and would bring a tear to my eye and I'm not French.
A hotel/exhibition hall/museum/static display at a French port would seem to be the best outcome for the ship. A total restoration of her appearance, configuration, and decor (excluding machinery) when she was FRANCE would complete the scenario, but that's probably utopian. Maybe the French consortium that was apparently considering just such a plan will revisit it now that the ship's asking price has dropped; I had understood, right or wrong, that the government offered to subsidize it. Somehow I don't see the casino ship plan being more than a band-aid, if it even got off the ground at all. The situation begs the question: "What does one do with a used, incredibly maintenance-intensive, thousand-foot ship whose very existence is hugely expensive?" Given the question, one realizes how incredibly lucky the QUEEN MARY has been to survive this far. Much the same can be said for museum ships around the world, whether the USS MISSOURI or the CUTTY SARK.
Posts: 292 | Location: Upstate NY | Registered: December 29, 2005
Must respectfully disagree with Heron. Any static role in the US or europe would legally define her as a "building" and not a ship, and therefore would have to be asbestos-free and conform to modern building code. Then we go back to the issue of decontamination, which makes sense only within the framework of a total rebuilding but is cost-prohibitive in and of itself.
Sadly, the #1 chance she has for survival and continued operation is New Orleans. Since she blew up in US terittory, she's eligible for reflagging under a coastwise wrecked vessel salvage title. The catch is 1) owner must be US Citizen, 2) repairs conducted in an US Shipyard and 3) US-citizen or permanent-resident crew subject to all US labor laws.
Here's the silver lining: the Carnival ships aiding the Katrina relief operation all left New Orleans for drydocking. If purchased by a US interest, she can immediately be registered under MARAD and chartered to FEMA for 4 to 6 months, possibly to the tune of US$ 100 - 200Million. Thereafter to be followed by a US$30M refit that will overhaul her 2 good remaining boilers, reduction gears and turbine. Throw in a high efficiency propeller, take the other one off to reduce drag...update the interior, convert all Olympic Deck cabins into Balcony Verandah cabins simply by adding a door and separator tarps...finish it off with a modified enclosed forward superstructure and curved-line lateral aft bulkheads from pool to sun deck...and last but not least, a fresh coat of paint in original livery colors with red/white/deep marine blue funnels a la "SS United States"...
...and here's the kicker...her USA reflagging makes her eligible for up to 87.5% government subsidization, and FY 2006 only started in September so there's plenty of money to go around.
YEAH, BUT WHAT ABOUT THE OUTLANDISH MAINTENANCE COSTS?
Why maintenance? Because the ship uses havy Bunker-C or #6, which causes breakdown and corrosion. A good restoration to clean up existing fuel lines/tanks/igniters/exhaust components helps, but it's not enough.
The solution for "as-is" operation is doubly-good. Minor conversion of existing systems to accept clean vegetable-based fuel, such as biodiesel or corn-based ethanol. Similar combustive properties, similar flash point, but better energy output and cleaner burn with no sulphuric acid that eats up the smokestacks or smells like petroleum on deck.
In fact, it'll smell like french fries. Which is a good motivation to quench that appetite. Not to mention the possibility of an industry-setting trend, and the HUUUUGE marketing oportunities here.
As far as actual operation is concerned...if she can make 10 to 12 knots and sustain for 12+ hours, RELIABLY, then she's good to go. Slow and low is the key. Eastern seaboard cruises in the summer, short miami-puerto rico or miami-key west itineraries. Perhaps expanded "all-american 10-12 day caribbean itineraries hitting Puerto Rico and all US Virgin islands...something that capitalizes on her US Flag. Crew gets minimum wage but tip income is received in international waters, so it's tax free - a motivation for good service if you can make $2K+ a week.
And let's not forget she's one of the few available ships with current north atlantic certification. She can make money. A few months docked in louisiana gets the rest of her wear & tear out of her current interiors, and gives us a chance to set up corporate offices and hire people.
SOLAS 2010 is coming up fast and that's a US$300M-type job. She needs to demonstrate current market viability in this highly competitive segment of the travel industry. Prospective investors are interested because an initial US$10M investment can turn a US$ 100M+ government charter in a matter of weeks.
Alex, I appreciate that information. I guess I was underestimating the difficulty (read: expense) of removing the asbestos. My scenario of a QUEEN MARY-type retirement is perhaps more personal preference than realistic.
Posts: 292 | Location: Upstate NY | Registered: December 29, 2005
I would love nothing more than to see her docked permanently on the west side as I drive to work every day - she'd be the highlight of my commute.
However, this day and age it would be cost-prohibitive, and even Mary is under financial trouble so there's no guarantee it would turn a profit...next best thing is to see her doing what she's designed to so: sailing the ocean blue )
In regards to Alex 79818's comments I think the entire steam plant has to be replaced. From what I have been told there has been no probable cause on what caused the boiler explosion in the first place. Was it metal fatigue or operator error? From what I have researched the NTSB has no concrete evidence to this date. With that said it would be an extreme liability to use the ship in an active role again with the current powerplant. Imagine spending all the money and man hours to repair the ship and God forbid the same accident happened again? Since the ship already relies on diesel powered generators I think the best solution (for active cruising role) is a pair of General Electric LM2500 gas turbine engines. I know this would be a super expensive conversion but can you imagine? They are rated at 33,600 h.p. each which would surpass Norway's current 40,000 h.p. by some 27,200 h.p. The ship would have increased fuel savings, higher cruise and top speeds, and cleaner emissions. In fact because they burn so clean you could remove the verticle exhaust pipes and route the exhaust back thru the 'wings' like in the past without the fear of sooting up the rear decks. Again I know this would be expensive but in my opinion the ship is worthy of it. GTS NORWAY....has a nice ring to it huh?
New photographs of Norway in Malaysia are on www.revedefrance.com with good news it would be in good condition now one can reach in English and in German on the site there is a superb software of translation photographs the site was to divide into two France and Norway good visit
In response to Capt. Matt...yes that is a very valid point indeed...in fact were I to conduct the complete rebuilding, I would probably utilize a COGES hybrid system with dual LM2500+ driving all four shafts, with both steam and gas turbines driving simultaneously through a shared secondary reduction gear. Since the input pinions can be positioned anywhere relative to the shafts, the gas turbine would feed the two outboard shafts (equipped with high-efficiency 4-bladed props), and the higher-speed existing lower-power/higher-speed steam turbines (that are in near-perfect condition by the way) would drive the center shafts fitted with five-bladed props.
The other idea to operate slow cruises on existing infrastructure is nothing but an attempt to demonstrate the ship's ongoing market viability in order to secure the investment funds needed for the rebuild.
Such operation would be temporary, of course, and I don't think that the ship should have any problems operating for, say, one year like this at the most, AS LONG AS a thorough maintenance is conducted AND the power plant ignition infrastructure is modified to take in a vegetable-based fuel that will not have the maintenance and corrosion issues associated with bunker fuel C o #6.
Gas Turbines are Ideal for Norway, because of their small area, light weight, and CHIEFLY due to the fact that Norway's hull is larger than Panamax. In a 950-ft hull, it's impossible in most cases to use GTS' small size advantave to engineer enough cabins that will generate sufficient income to offset the gas turbine's substantially higher fuel costs...BUT
this calculation doesn't apply to Norway, because she's longer than Panamax. So her operation's economy of scale hinges primarily not on operating costs, but on revenue-generating internal volume. My plan for converting Olympic deck to all-balcony cabins, and converting the forward engine room to an interior mall with interior-looking staterooms on decks B, C, and D (D-deck is where the Spa is for those not familiar with original configuration, to give you an idea of how low in the hull we're talking about), would add 120 high and medium priced cabins and suites, which combined with the mall's retail venues, is more than necessary to make up for the difference.
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