quote:

Originally posted by Watson Island Norway Fan:

quote:

Originally posted by SSUS_NJ:
What many of use "blame" NCL/Star for is the apparent deceitful handling of the movement of the Norway from Germany->Malaysia->India under the frequent guise of "repair" or under the cloud of "promissory holding companies", when they were violating several national and international laws regarding decontamination of the ship prior to scrapping.

Great point SSUS_NJ !!! It's silly to say we blame the scumbags at NCL and Star for Indian worker's health problems. But as noted above, they HAVE been very sneaky and dishonest in the way they have handled all this. They could have settled on a "reasonable" sales price with an interested preservation effort in 2004 or 2005. But they chose to take this course of deceit and for some reason DESTROY a wonderful part of maritime history.

Whatever actrions Star Cruises/NCL took, they believe it is in the best interests of their company. As for avoiding Basel Treaty, they could have taken a different tact before the Norway had the boiler explosion. Since it's illegal per the Treaty to export ships for scrapping, they could have place the ship into service in Indian seas, for example, as the ex Sea is doing now. After a few cruises, sell her to the scrapyards. Then, one wouldn't need to export the ship, as it's already in India.

Which just goes to show how foolish some of these international treaties can be. Now, I realise there's no way they could put the Norway into service in Indian seas without major expenses to repair the damages caused by the boiler explosion, but loopholes such as the one I suggested can be found, and which can be used on other ships...............
I don't that NCL had decided to scrap the Norway upon leaving Germany, as rumors existed at that time that the Norway was headed for Signapore. The fact that it didn't go to Signapore doesn't mean the possibility that it would never existed.
As for the Norway leaving Port Klang, there's still a slight hope that it will be sold to Dubai investors. At what point do you think a cruise ship should be considered scrap, or waste?

quote:

Originally posted by Watson Island Norway Fan:

quote:

Originally posted by SSUS_NJ:
What many of use "blame" NCL/Star for is the apparent deceitful handling of the movement of the Norway from Germany->Malaysia->India under the frequent guise of "repair" or under the cloud of "promissory holding companies", when they were violating several national and international laws regarding decontamination of the ship prior to scrapping.

Great point SSUS_NJ !!! It's silly to say we blame the scumbags at NCL and Star for Indian worker's health problems. But as noted above, they HAVE been very sneaky and dishonest in the way they have handled all this. They could have settled on a "reasonable" sales price with an interested preservation effort in 2004 or 2005. But they chose to take this course of deceit and for some reason DESTROY a wonderful part of maritime history.

Actually, I think it is entirely logical to "blame" NCL/Star for what will happen to Indian workers consequent to their despicable handling of the Norway scenario. I concur with both the above posters in the spirit that ultimately the country of India should be held accountable for its actions/inactions in their behest. On the other hand, to simply shrug it off as a case of "Well it's not NCL's fault that India doesn't do anything about it!" is similar to the attitude that "Well I'll buy these toys, or other items that I KNOW are being made in sweatshops employing and endangering childrens' lives, after all... it's not MY fault that their own government isn't protecting them!" I'm sorry but the logic is very much the same. Culpability for placing a ship into the hands of scrappers whom you KNOW don't give a damn about their employees most certainly IS your responsibility when there ARE scrappers who would do it without exploiting their workers with such impunity. I think there is a DOUBLE culpability, YES, India bears its own, for letting it go on unchecked; but make no mistake about it, any company (or individual) that, in order to save a buck (or make a buck), engages with those nefarious scrappers is EQUALLY culpable as being part and parcel of their further exploitation. IF companies had enough DECENCY (certainly NCL/Star does NOT) to refuse them enough business--perhaps they might consider changing their tactics. The excuse that "well other ships will still go in and endanger them" sounds to me like a little child trying to rationalize that if "other kids do it--so can I!" Doesn't wash with me. I most definitely DO hold NCL/Star guilty of gross disregard for loyalty, heritage and history--for contemptible levels of deceit in the handling of this entire affair,--AND for gross and callous disregard for the LIVES THEIR SHIP will jeopardize in seeking "the easiest way out."
Wasn't it Kathy Lee Guiford, or someone like that who got in a lot of hot water because a line of her products had been found to be made in "sweatshops" that exploited child labor (in fact I think it MAY have been in India!)... and the outside pressure made her cancel that contract? Why? Because folks DID find her just as culpable as the Indian government (If it was India--not sure but it was in SE Asia and I think that's right), in exploiting those child workers. If you nurture, or worse yet, profit, by taking advantage of a country's disregard for their own workers and one that will not protect them, in MY book, while the country's policy is reprehensible, you can't pull a Pontius Pilate routine and wash your hands of any guilt simply by laying all of the guilt solely on India. ANYONE willing to bring asbestos laden ships into that yard has their hands just as sullied in equal amounts of those laborers' blood. The idea that I'm only doing what others would do anyway doesn't wash--NOT if someone CLAIMS to be "environmentally" concerned, or claims to have a shred of concern for humanity. NCL/Star IS furthering these workers' plight simply by actively contributing to it's continuation. I, in fact DO blame them.
This in NO way detracts that I am in complete agreement with BOTH posters that an equally eggregious act was their all-too-obvious efforts at trying to get around the laws and international treaties by whatever underhanded means necessary to achieve their hideous ends. They are beneath contempt in my book, and will remain so--all the usual "prove it prove it!" appeals to ignorance from the usual NCL apologists notwithstanding.

A2K

A2K,

Dead on. I do agree with you 100%. Common sense does tell us not to give a loaded gun to a child just because he/she wants it.

PS. I do love the way you word things.

Have a dandy day.

I wonder are there any photos of the Norway as of late? If so could someone give me the site address? I feel that those of you who have truly been trying to get the Norway spared such a unjustified fate at the hands of a bunch of greedy people who don't really care about what the ship represents to those of us who see her for what she really is ( last of a breed of well built ocean liners ) are to be commended for your resoluteness in attempting to have her spared a horrible fate. I remember seeing photos of her when see still sailed as the France and thought how beautiful see looked. I was also happy to see when N.C.L. refurbished her as the Norway, I did think she looked a little top heavy with the added upper accomodations, but there was no denying her still beautiful and sleek lines, it just really is a shame the fate that has befallen this ship that once stood out as the pride of France.

For many of you this may be a trip down memory lane.... http://www.webshots.com/search?query=%22ss+norway%22&start=0

Enjoy and have a great (re)voyage.

http://rapidshare.de/files/33014539/norway_0001.wmv.html
I made this little tribute to the SS Norway, the SS United States and the SS Independence
The song I used is "who wants to live forever" by Queen. I thought this would fit the slideshow well.

enjoy!

Nice job, thanks very much.
And thanks to have put a pic of Norway as he used to be - France.

thank you!

Wow this form got quite is there somthing I've missed? I also want to apologise for my over the top post when I insulted Giggi and Svein. I over reacted and I am sorry to all those who had to see it.

David Womacks

Well Folks,
Whether or not the SS Norway is saved, we should at least write and call the appropiate officials on the following link that Reuben has updated:

http://www.ssmaritime.com/Norway-NewsUpdates-1.htm

Let us work to fight for the lives of the Alang workers(Men, Women, and Children) who will suffer the worst fate imaginable if they dismantle the Norway without the safety equipment. Let convince the court that they can save 2 lives with ONE decision.

The decision to ban the Norway will save lives, and will allow the ship to be decontaminated by a certified facility that would be paid entirely by Dubai. Convince the courts that the option to safely remove the asbestos is there, but the Star Cruises/Scrappers are reluctant to sell the ship to Dubai.

Asked them this one question: Why should they allow the scrappers to dismantle the ship when they had violated their laws. Also, asked them why should they allow Star Cruises to get away with murder when it was their responsibility to remove the asbestos prior to the sale to the scrappers.

In addition, ask the courts why should they give Star Cruises the benefit of the doubt when it's clear that they block the sale of the SS Norway to Dubai who was to have taken full responsibility for the repairs and cleanup of the asbestos and all other lethal chemicals as outlined by the International Laws that were enacted by India and the EU?

Tell them that Dubai is the ONLY option for the situation that India is in. Tell the courts that their decision will make this cloud on controversy disappear if they refuse the breakup of the Norway.

Give them a reason to convince the scrappers to sell the ship to Dubai, and allowing the cameras to move away from their country.

Continue the fight to save lives at Alang, especially the women and children who will be exposed to the asbestos fibers as well. Not just for the life on the Norway herself.

Here is the latest on the SS Norway:

http://www.edie.net/news/news_story.asp?id=11997&channel=0

Let's fight to save lives!!

I'm 100 % sure that in one year, or when the Norway issue is over, all you [...] won't give a s... about indian workers.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Raoul Fiebig,

Svein,
If fighting to save the lives of the Alang workers will convince the courts to BAN the SS Norway, then the mission is accomplished. Save 2 lives with one decision.

This is the only suggestion that might save the SS Norway indirectly. Use the concerns of the workers welbeing of Alang to save the SS Norway.

If we go about it this way, then it benefits everybody. Lets look at this matter in a legal fashion.

We're all here to save the SS Norway. Let's use some indirect tactics to save her. Use the Alang workers as an example and go from there.

Dan you always seem to be positive no matter how grim the situation. I'm sure info is scarce but is the SS NORWAY going to be locked up till the December decision or will she be open to anyone who wants to loot her? more than what she allready has been? If the S.C. does send her off how will she be pulled off the beach? I think we all care for the Indian workers look at how many die every year and thats the official number ,how about unofficialy? I've given my $50.00 AU. to Gopal wheather she is saved or not at least i can say i tried.
Peter

Andrea Doria,
If the courts BANS the Norway in India, the only other party that has the resources to pull the Norway out to sea is Dubai. Since they can't do anything until a court decision, everyone has to use this time to contact the officials regarding the health of the Alang workers(Men, Women, and Children) who will be exposed to the asbestos fibers, which would spread dangerously into the Alang community.

1240 tons is practically 2.5 Million lbs of dangerous fibers that would make Alang into a very dangerous toxic waste dump.

For the time being, lets focus on saving lives of the people of Alang. Thus we indirectly save both the SS Norway and the people in the surounding communities.

Remember: If the children becomes sick from the asbestos fibers, then an entire generation of citizens will be lost forever.

I don't think I am the only frequent follower of this forum whose worldview is being changed as we speak.

I honestly had no idea what went on at these shipbreaking beaches before Norway was condemned to one. And I think my attitude will be forever changed.

Am I going to sell all my worldly goods, go to ALANG, and give them all my money? Probably not.

Am I going to keep these people in my prayers? And be more understanding and sympathetic to their plight? You better believe it.

Our beloved piece or machinery may come or go, but these worker's lives will have been changed forever. If our effort results in the Norway being removed before destruction, or forces the government of India to make changes to their work laws .... that may be a good think all the way round.

PEACE

quote:

Originally posted by Svein:
I'm 100 % sure that in one year, or when the Norway issue is over, all you [...] won't give a s... about indian workers.

Not that I agree with you; but in other words, you're saying that we [...] will have the same view as NCL/Star, right?

A2K

quote:

Originally posted by Watson Island Norway Fan:
Am I going to keep these people in my prayers? And be more understanding and sympathetic to their plight? You better believe it.

Our beloved piece or machinery may come or go, but these worker's lives will have been changed forever. If our effort results in the Norway being removed before destruction, or forces the government of India to make changes to their work laws .... that may be a good think all the way round.

PEACE

Very well said, Watson Island Norway Fan. It also debunks what appears to be a thinly veiled bitter jab at those of us who would also like to save (or have saved) this ship. As to a previous mention of whether or not the ship will be "looted"; I am convinced the "looting" is going on as we sit and wait. There are already those touting their wares picked from our beloved ship on other websites, and no-doubt offered for a very handsome profit that many are only too eager to jump at--sad, as it only encourages the practice all the more.

I find it equally sad that some of the apologists find it necessary to toss around rather angry invectives simply because one possible conduit for postponing what still may be her inevitable fate; is that we "dare" to bring up the Alang workers. This is a canard, and all should recognize it. It would seem to me that whatever the motive, if a drive to save a ship could save lives, that, in and of itself makes it a worthy cause; and all the bitter insinuations reflect the true designs and motives of those making them. I, too, pray for the poor, the desitute, and those who have no active voice in their behalf; and if doing so would also play a role, however small, in forcing those who've orchestrated this farce to pay a heavier price--so much the better with me.

A2K

NCL/SC have done nothing wrong but selling an old ship. As I love the Norway as much as anyone of you (and probably havne more knowledge about her than most of you) I think that is a very sad thing, but I'm not losing my senses over it and blame NCL for that.

The fact that she contains asbestos is a fate that she shares with many other ships of her age. These ships are also being scrapped, not only in Alang, but in all places where they are doing scrapping. To say that NCL/SC is killing indian workers is nothing but pathetic nonsense.

What is killing them as much as asbestos is the poor working conditions without any proper safety measures or ppe. Workers have been killed there for as long the business has been there without me hearing anything about that until now when the Norway is in the spotlight.

quote:

Originally posted by Watson Island Norway Fan:
I don't think I am the only frequent follower of this forum whose worldview is being changed as we speak.

I honestly had no idea what went on at these shipbreaking beaches before Norway was condemned to one. And I think my attitude will be forever changed.

Am I going to sell all my worldly goods, go to ALANG, and give them all my money? Probably not.

Am I going to keep these people in my prayers? And be more understanding and sympathetic to their plight? You better believe it.

Our beloved piece or machinery may come or go, but these worker's lives will have been changed forever. If our effort results in the Norway being removed before destruction, or forces the government of India to make changes to their work laws .... that may be a good think all the way round.

PEACE

Very well said, Watson Island Norway Fan. As has been posted by me and others, perhaps the legacy of our ship will be that she helped expose the life-threatening conditions at these shipbreakers and brought about some much needed change. If that's the case, I can live with it.