quote:

Originally posted by Alex79818:
I'm sorry but I really can't find myself agreeing with these sort of sentiments. While it is sad that she is on a beach, I will submit to this forum that it is not the Supreme Court who is sentencing the ship to death, but rather her own supporters who consider abandoning her cause at every smokescreen and obstacle which our opponents present.

The simple truth is that those who wish to see Norway scrapped depend on US to let them. This is a big legal case, going back a number of years, and alleging a great many violations of Indian Law, International Law, and of the orders of the Apex court as well. I, for one, am GLAD that the justices are TAKING THEIR TIME to review all pertinent issues in the case instead of rushing through it. Remember how the saying goes, "the longer the jury's out, the better the chances for acquittal".

Waiting until december for Judgement is GOOD, because it means they are TALKING with other members of the government to asses how best to proceed. This case isn't just about the ship, it's about the job market, India's steel industry (both recycled and produced), India's economy, wage laws, and ultimately cuts through to the deepest social concerns of Indian society with issues such as health care, educational opportunities, and caste. Not an easy matter, nor could it be decided in a short while.

Now while I certainly agree that the explosion damaged certain bulkheads within the aft engine room, I have seen no documentation (including repair estimates from 3 yards) that would indicate any sort of major damage to the hull's integrity or the keel. Were this the case, she would not have been insured while being towed, because no insurance company is going to front the bill for a severely-damaged hull rupture (think USS Cole, which had to be "carried" back home. Norway's damage is nothing like that).
The stresses on the hull of sitting on a beach are very minor compared to that of sailing the Atlantic, and as posted before, would even be less than being in dry dock.

If you don't believe me then I offer the example of SS Great Britain, which sat on a beach near Port Stanley/Puerto Argentino from 1937 to 1970, when this 1845-built ship was re-floated and towed back to the UK. AND YOU GUYS ARE TELLING ME THERE'S NO HOPE FOR NORWAY, BUILT AS ONE OF THE STRONGEST HULLS EVER IN 1962?

Please.

Now there is not one single source or report with any account that she has been moved further up the beach to the "point of no return", or that any cutting has started, in violation of the Court's injunction. That's a sure-fire way for them to lose the case, I don't think they'll do is UNLESS PUBLIC OPINION AGAINST THEM DISSAPEARS.

Folks, once the spotlight is off, and greenpeace/bani runs out of money to prosecute the case, it's all over. We are just as much a part of this issue in the ship's future as the scrappers are. To be quite honest it really ticks me off when people pledge to support something that will be hard-fought and then just quit at the 3rd or 4th obstacle when there's really no indication of faliure. Too many people have contributed too much of their own time, money, efforts, and in some cases their health and reputation as well, for this to all the support to just "vanish" into nothing when we finally get what we want:

A FRIGGIN DAY IN COURT!!!

Now if you think I'm beating a dead horse then you're welcome think that, but I would hope that before people start throwing in the towel based on this or that or the other thing, the would cite a reputable source of the information on which they based their decision.

Ahh Alex, your words are music to my ears. I was starting to think that I was the only one who hasn't given up the ghost. I totally agree that it is now more important than ever to keep up the fight and the emails, and I will do so.

By the way folks, that Andrews/Lantern guy posted over at Jan-Olav's forum that the breakers have been inching her closer for the last three days, and the intended point will be 2500 feet from the beach. Isn't that still a long way, considering?

quote:

AND YOU GUYS ARE TELLING ME THERE'S NO HOPE FOR NORWAY, BUILT AS ONE OF THE STRONGEST HULLS EVER IN 1962?

Yes, it was a strong hull back in 1962, but once again Alex79818 and others aren't taking into account the boiler explosion which damaged her hull structure and weakened her.
She ISN'T the strong hull she was back in 1962 and each day she rises and falls with the tide, a little more damage is done. Plus she's slowly filling with water as every ship usually does...new or old. Bilge pumps usually take care of this. Unfortunately for the SS France/Norway, her bilge pumps are off.
I'm not abandoning her Adja, but I think it's time to face reality. Unless I hear to the contrary with valid proof, I believe that she will very soon, be permanently beached, if she isn't already.
I sincerely hope I'm wrong about this, but these scrappers are money hungry grubs who constantly violate the law.

Hi Alex,

Couldn't agree with you more. As I have been saying "keep e-mailing all involved"! This is OT for the Norway. Also, I don't believe half of what I hear...furnishings for sale..wanna see some pics? Dragging her closer and closer daily...Have special undercover informants??? Sorry but it doesn't float with me. Kinda sounds like alot of BS and propoganda to me. And all for what? To get everyone that is supporting the Norway to give up and open the door to her doom!

I also have to agree with you in regards to the integrety of the ship. Yes there was the explosion, and yes she sustained damage to some interior bulkheads and doorways but there has been no damage mentioned in any report to her keel or outer plating. In the event of an explosion, the forces are usually directed through weaker portions of any structure, the path of least resistance.

As I have also said she is a strong lady with a strong back. If she could handle the north Atlantic she can handle the beach. She's not being pounded by a tidal surge, she's being lifted and lowered by a fairly slow moving tide. If she's slowly filling with water, all the better. This means she'll sit firmly on the beach where the tides will have less effect and the scrappers will have more weight to pull. WHEN the courts DO order her out of Indian waters, she just has to wait for the next high tides, get pumped out and happily sail away waving to the breakers with the one finger salute.

Too optimistic? Yes, but only if everone quits on her. Don't give up!!!!!!

I will fight for the S/S Norway till theirs nothing left of her, and if she is lost I will fight aganist those who killed her and destory them!!!! I think she was NOT pulled up further the beach it's just a somke screen and I will think that till I see a picture.

It's good to see that the enthusiasium is back on this forum. Let's continue to help the people who are fighting to see the SS Norway BANNED from Indian waters. Here is the address of Gopal Krishna. Let send some funds to help his case that much stronger, regardless of the outcome of the SS Norway.


Gopal Krishna
Coordinator
Ban Asbestos Network of India (BANI)
Global Platform on Ship-breaking
A-1/125, Safdarjung Enclave
New Delhi-110029
Mb: 9818089660

Every bit helps!

And while we're at it, let us continue the fight to save the SS United States.

Absolutely agreed! Fight on!

quote:

Originally posted by pavilion:
Greetings from across the San Francisco Bay in CA. As an agent with my own company, I read in a travel agent magazine that as of August or September she was suppose to be sent to Singapore for scrapping completely. Because of her former damage after the blast that put a hole in her hull, they couldn't figure out whether she was worth saving for a hotel or pulling apart for materials. Very sad since she is one of the most famous and most beautiful of the old ships around.

"Sent to S'pore for scrapping completely?" Hem... I'm not sure... I dont think that their shipyards specialize in scrapping big ships, and, on the other hand, S'pore govt being so touchy when it comes to environment, I'm pretty sure that they will never take the slightest chance putting their people's health at risk. But if we talk of renovating, yes, it can be done there, very nicely.
I've been living there for 5 years, (the best place to live and work!), and I currently shuttle between Jakarta and S'pore and never heard abt this "rumor".

Good to hear all these positive thoughts again but, (sorry about this negativity) if Dubai has vanished, it still leaves the not so small problem of finding someone who actually wants the ship.No one came up with the cash when the ship was in much better condition - so why now?

"lanterne" (Andrew Shaw) has announced the upcoming inauguration of his website - where he'll soon be selling the contents of "20 containers" of objects from the interior of the Norway.

Dedicated preservationist? Blatant profiteer?

Hi All,

I wish I could share your enthusiasm, but I don't.
The scrappers are known for breaking the law...along with big ships and the Indian Supreme Court members are apparently bribe taking figureheads.
I truly wish all the best to this wonderful ship and have sent in my share of emails on her behalf, but once a ship has reached the beach its pretty much a done deal.
I hope I'm wrong and will be more than happy to admit it if I am.
BTW, I'm NOT going to be-labor the weakened hull condition point anymore. If some of you want to believe she's as fit as she was in 1962 more power to you. I don't share this thought after reading the NTSC reports.

A few pics of Norway leaving NYC Sept. 5, 2001.

http://www.worldshipny.com/photoexhib2.html

I wrote another letter to the President of India regarding the situation of teh S.S. Norway. I suggest others do so... and if it's some sort of sign or pipe dream... I had a dream a few nights ago seeing the Norway in a port in pristine condition.
If this is a omen... I'm sticking my faith till the last.

Peace!

Very well said Alex, fantastic words which i totally believe in, it's just a shame a few seem to be 'throwing in the towell'don't they realise that's the publicity the breakers want. Sure,opinions are invited but best kept to yourselves, they can do more harm than good...

Sky KIng, you are not alone. I've come to the realization that the body of our ship will soon be gone, and I also hope I am wrong. I refuse to look at any photos. My fight now is to make sure she is not forgotten -- and to help ensure that today's new cruisers who have to have their balconies and other more modern amenities gain an appreciation for the liner-turned-cruise-ship that started it all.

On another note, I was in Philadelphia this weekend, and had another opportunity to wave to our other lady (SS US) from the Walt Whitman Bridge. Goodness, she is still such a beauty, and I am also upping my efforts to have her saved.



Aside to Dave: I don't recall the harpist's name on our Celebrity Infinity cruise, but I do remember seeing several passengers getting 1-on-1 harp lessons.

quote:

Dedicated preservationist? Blatant profiteer?

In answering that very pointed question I offer the following for consideration:
I know there are two schools of thought on this; but I am an inveterate logician, and the logics MUST be based in facts; and the facts are these:
1.) wants to regain $50 K in investments.
2.) took about 600-700 pics of a beloved liner in a sad state of neglect and "packaging".
3.) those pics will cost $100 USD for a single CD with them on it... that means that with a sale of only 500 such CD's he will already have recouped his entire "investment". One might well argue that it's doubtful he'll sell 500, but equally, one never knows, there are far more folks who love this ship than have posted here, and/or on many other sites--chomping at the bit to get at them--I've seen some responses.
4.) Since a trip to Alang could hardly cost $50K, logic dictates that the lion's share of said "investment" lay in those "containers" of artifacts he's dealed for off of the ship. (and you can BET they've probably already started scavenging whatever they can while she sits there.
5.) If a picture CD (one which I have NO desire to see) runs $100. USD, can you imagine what a piece of the teak deck will cost? $1,000.? More? What might a chair or table, or even something from the Dazzles disco bring in? Can one conceive what some might be willing to pay to have one of those orange life-savers with S.S. Norway painted on them? Lots of those can fit in a container. Heaven only knows what other high-fetching memorabilia still lay aboard. Imagine, if you will TWENTY containers of this stuff, all for sale at prices I have no reason to doubt will follow the precedent set by a $100. CD of pictures.

Run the figures, I have absolutely NO doubt the potential windfall could well run close to a half-million or more. Some may think that's an excessive reach; but NOT based on the price of one picture CD. I shudder to think what some of those items would go for. Perhaps, if anything it is an understatement.

Now with all that said, I reiterate, that since there is nothing, so far as I know, illegal about this transaction, then he is well within his right, and if the market is there, the buyers are certainly well within theirs. But in answer to your original query and the aforementioned logic, I see only one possible answer: the latter. Preservationists are extremely "selfless" IF that is their primary concern; and once any original expenses were covered, they might make donations--to maritime museums, and/or offer them to ships willing to continue their use--or at the very least minimize the margin of profit because that would NOT be their primary concern. At least that's how *I* see the role of a preservationist. In either case, it can certainly be said that making a handsome "profit" will be a most likely outcome.

On the point of negativity; I have consistently maintained that I will continue to do what I can given any hope of the ship's saving; but equally I am also an incurable realist. I by NO means wish to see the ship's supporters "throw in the towel" and give up what efforts they can expend; but I do maintain that it's a lot more than mere speculation that has led many of us to conclude that the ship's fate is all but sealed. Again consider the facts. I won't belabor the issue by delineating them, as, like Sky King, I tire of redundance. Suffice it to say, they are there. Should there be "no cutting" until this JOKE of a court makes yet another fait-accompli judgment in December, there isn't a scintilla of doubt in my mind that this beautiful icon of a bygone glory era in shipping will have it's bones picked to the marrow by the scavengers, profiteers, "preservationists" (take your pick!) and what will be left behind will NOT be pretty. The court will doubtless hear all the arguments about the hull's integrity having been compromised as well, and more promises (quite probably more LIES) about safety precautions that we all know will NOT be put into practice, and in light of all the water already under the bridge (no pun intended--trust me!) will either make another specious postponement, or else they will simply grant the permit.

I don't know about some of you; but I'd much prefer to expect the worst, and be surprised by the best--than the reverse scenario. Call me one of those "negativists" if you desire; but believe me that not a soul on this forum wants this ship saved any more than I. I just will not allow myself to continue to be strung out with one false-hope after another, for yet another 4 loooooooong months while my beautiful ship languishes as she's picked apart. This is more than I wish to bear.

As to all you who remain positive; beyond having my greatest respect and best wishes, like Sky King, I dearly would love for you to be able to proclaim victory in December--truly I would. I will NOT cease to send e-mails to the Indian government, and have to my own congressional delegation about this outrage--so if they're hoping it'll make me just give up, they're flat out wrong--it's just that for ME... I feel the reality of the situation given the best judges money can buy plus myriad other circumstances, that I cannot allow myself to be set up for anymore colossal let downs.

I agree with Lisa... I have absolutely NO desire to see any pictures of my ship...not for $100.00, not for a brass farthing, in anything less than the total resplendence she had always glowed with. And that's how she'll remain with ME... for so long as the Good Lord grants me.

A2K

Speedbird vc10 are you a pilot? I think we need to fight a 3 pronged war on NCL/Star/the
breakers!

Item 1. Save S/S Norway how to do with dubai. dubai buys some old cargo ships and trade with the breakers, that way no sales penilty it's a win win Norway gets saved breakers get ships that are worth just as much but don't have to fight for permission to scrap them.

Item 2. S/S Indy she's our next priority she most endangered besides S/S Norway due to she's a very little know ship. We have to force NCL to sail her how, I don't know but maybe we can dig some bad stuff up on them and blackmail them!!

Item 3. S/S United States. She's kinda safe for now NCL don't have the gonads to scrap her because it will start such a rucuss. We could like I sayed before blackmail them anybody here a haker if not I got a friend who is a really good one!

Roual if I post a NCL sentenced poor indain workers to death topic on the main NCL bord will you remove it? It may just put a needed bit more pressure on NCL to not scarp the S/S Norway. Come on Roual give me a week before you remove it if you have to, and see if it changes anything.

Now remember even if you have given up just fight a little longer, for most of us the S/S Norway carried us on her back across thousend foot deep seas and 40+ foot waves, she endured so much for us lets us now endure for her.

Now lets go kick their asses and save our ships!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fellow Norway lovers, first of all I hate what is happening and what has happened. I am not one to throw in the towel just for the heck of it. My previous posts should show that I was a believer in saving this ship untill recently.
My current point of view is this : 1) she is a historic and majestic vessel. 2) I have no doubt that her hull and superstructure are still strong and are not compromised by current conditions and I don't believe the boiler explosion weakened her at all.
With all of that said.....This is 2006. Someone with the means and infrastructure and balls to ignore current trends would have to purchase her. Quite simply, I doubt a maverick like Knute Kloster is around these days. Yes, there is a very short list of people that could purchase her and restore her, but it would put much of their personal fortunes at serious risk and even after a refit, they would be in a business they knew nothing about. Once you include corporations, it very quickly becomes a game of risk analysis and exposure, and again people that have no business running a cruise ship. So, that leaves the few current players in the cruise ship business. They have a formula that is working for them, sadly, it boils down to get rid of the old and bring in the new. I love the Norway and would love to sail on her again, however, if I had to find a ship to take my family ( including two teenage boys) it would not be on the Norway. She simply could not compete with the outdoor theater, rock climbing and wave pools of the modern cattle ships. Kids screaming, "I'm bored" really do matter to parents. Sadly, a slick hull and significant history do not matter to families these days. Even for the ultra-luxury minded cruisers, she would need very major upgrades to compete.
I'm not saying it isn't do-able, just that I doubt that any cruise line has the balls to try it. Lets face it, for the cost of her hull and the needed upgrades for any future roll, whether it is sailing or even static, at this point it is a longshot.
We all love the Norway, but lets face it, how many of us would be willing to travel to another country just to have dinner on her ? Or to sleep on her for a week ? Unless that number is 1000 every month, for the next five years....it just isn't worth saving this great ship. Yes, we all love her, and would do what we could to save and support her, but the long-term numbers just don't add up. I hate to say it, but the name and memory of the Norway mean something, just not the 100's of millions in expenses that it would take to make this a proffittable venture.
Do you have $100,000.00 that you can invest today.....that you can risk to loose ? That means that you would not have to borrow it, or would go bankrupt if it was lost ? Next question, do you know 1000 people that are in the same financial group as you ? How many of you are experts in operating a cruise line or restaurant/hotel operation ? If all is possitive, you could save our ship. Sadly, most people I know that have access to that kind of "mad money" don't know 50 people, much less 1000 people that can write that kind of check. How many of your friends are this devoted to the Norway ? Yes, the numbers get smaller. I go back to the idea that it would take a cruise line to save our ship.....sadly they are not fighting to do so.

quote:

Originally posted by David Womacks:
Come on Roual give me a week before you remove it if you have to, and see if it changes anything.

Sorry, David, I had to close it. I have no "play" here - it's not my forum and I must stick to the rules.

Update from Reuben and definitely a MUST READ!!!

http://www.ssmaritime.com/Norway-NewsUpdates-1.htm
\
Let's keep the SS Norway war going, folks!

quote:

Originally posted by Raoul Fiebig:

quote:

Originally posted by David Womacks:
Come on Roual give me a week before you remove it if you have to, and see if it changes anything.

Sorry, David, I had to close it. I have no "play" here - it's not my forum and I must stick to the rules.

Thank god you did!