Originally posted by Audrey2Katrina: Harry S Truman had that famous desk sign stating: "The BUCK stops here."
Thank you for your heart-felt and well-spoken post, A2K.
I think it's a sad commentary on World society (Americans AND many others) that Harry's sentiments no longer hold - though they really should.
We've clearly moved to a "Pass the BUCK" society, where no-one is willing to take responsibility for their own actions or the actions of their subordinates. STAR/NCL/Breakers/whatever is only one of millions of nebulous clouds (corporate, political, private) of BUCK-passing that exist around the globe.
Will she be in good enough condition to be moved? Hope so, time does take its toll, but she is strong and was built well, thus she should stand up to it!
Laksamana,
The SS France/Norway WAS strong. There are several others here besides you, who continue to say how well built she is and that she is strong enough to withstand the strain of rising and falling with the tide. She WAS built strong...over 40 years ago. Time and more importantly, the boiler explosion, have taken their toll on her hull and she is NOT as strong as you think. If she is allowed to rise and fall with the tide until December 4th, she will most likely, have incurred great hull damage and may be too fragile, without costly repairs, to refloat to Dubai. A few more weeks of rising and falling will doom her to the cutters torch...if she isn't there already.
If she is allowed to rise and fall with the tide until December 4th,
I think it's time we all come to the realization that there is no way on God's green Earth the breakers will let that happen. Sadly enough your last sentence is probably much closer to the truth. The people involved have no conscience whatever, and if the torches haven't hit her yet, it is only a matter of time--and as the saying goes, "Time and TIDE wait for no man." I reiterate what I and others have said many times and that is that I have absolutely NO desire to see any more pictures of my beautiful liner taken since the beaching. I will remember her slicing her way through the waves like a hot knife through butter, elegant, and with a very happy load of passengers and crew having the time of their lives.
I do NOT collect funeral pictures. I remember my beloved at their healthiest,happiest, and best. To each his/her own.
A2K
Posts: 166 | Location: New Orleans | Registered: April 14, 2006
For whatever it's worth, at the last engineering soundings of the Queen Mary's hull (several years ago), from what I recall, the metal thickness was still greater than what is required in any commercial vessel today (they built 'em to last, back in the day, I guess). Of course hull thickness isn't as much a worry compared to structural integrity. Considering that the Mary had many more years in the massive stresses of translantic crossings than the France/Norway did, and the Mary is still in great shape, then that probably gives us good hope for the Norway's hull integrity. Of course the Mary was never sitting on sand for months at a time, nor did she have a boiler explosion. But since the Mary has been 'docked' at Long Beach, tons of her innards have been ripped out - much structural material... structural supports, boiler room walls, structural bulkheads, and heck, they removed half of C and D decks, never mind the majority of her powertrain - and she still contines to be in good shape. (well okay, there is some debate that the recent modifications are causing serious damage to her structural integrity, but that's another story). Anyway, just thought I'd mention this as a little bit of hope for what this class of liner is capable of handling. So the Norway may be just fine...
If only she was still in international waters. Sitting there with no crew and no operable propulsion, she could have been claimed by any of us that could cast a line on her. Sadly she is in coastal waters and is in the process of being beached for the last time. It totally kills me....I have been holding onto the last shreads of hope.....I almost can't say it.....but our girl is gone. Damn the new NCl and Damn Star cruises. I think back a few years and the optomisism I had when I found this forum. Way back when, I searched for "our girl" and said " NCL would sell the whole fleet, if they had to just to save the Norway" and that is the ship I want to sail on again. Well, time has told a different tail and I will not be on the Norway ever again. I can't help that, it kills me, but I can say this, I will never sail on an NCL ship again......period. For the last few months I have been telling friends to stay off of NCL ships....that will continue and I will never set foot on one of their ships again. I honestly don't know if Knute Kloster is still alive, I wish him Godspeed, but If he is still around, I feel the pain he must be feeling when he hears that his blue girl is gone. I know.....I really know that he never saw this one comming. To everyone at Noregion Carribean Lines, Noregion Cruise lines, Kloster Cruises and everyone else that ever had a part in this great ship, I share your sadness and missery. I still can't believe it, but she is gone. What a totally fu#$#$-up way to go. I have to say it....for the worthless cowards that did not have the insight to save this great ship.....you have no business on the seas....and it will catch up to you. God Bless The SS France/ Norway.
Waterone1, I share your grief. Right now, we must continue the fight to preserve the Norway's memory by saving the SS United States. Let's make sure that NCL doesn't send this ship to the scrappers. If they tell the port authorities that the ship needs to go to Europe for hull repairs and other changes to the ship, you know what will happen next.
Let's us call or email the SS United States Foundation and the SSUS Conservatory about what NCL did to the SS Norway, and convince them to establish an alternative for the Big U before it's too late.
The best solution is for both organizations to talk to the NYC officials about bringing the Big U to NYC. Second, we could contact Reuben and ask him to pass on a message to John Voet about starting a joint US/Saudi Arabian venture to buy and restore the SS United States as a SS Rotterdam type attraction in the Big Apple.
How about it, everyone? Should we sit and be depressed about the passing of the SS Norway or should carry on the battle to save the Big U by contacting the NYC Officials about it?
For the time being, let's forget contacting congress about the Big U and instead intensify our collective efforts on NYC. We have to tell them that if they allow the Big U to serve as a floating hotel/museum, we'll come 100%. A restored Big U will attract lot more attention than any ship out there.
Let's get started!
Dan Lague
Posts: 347 | Location: Florida | Registered: May 16, 2006
- Queen Mary - Long Beach California - 33 45 10 n 118 11 23 w - SS America - Canary Islands - 28 20 45 n 14 10 49 w - SS United States - Philadelphia Pennsylvania - 39 16 14 n 76 35 05 w - SS Independence - Vallejo California - 38 06 04 n 122 16 08 w - SS Norway - 02 49 22 n 101 13 33 e - Aquarama - Buffalo New York - 42 50 21 n 78 51 40 w - Columbia (Boblo) - Detroit Michigan @ River Rouge - 42 15 38 n 83 07 29 w - Railroad Barge - Detroit Michigan @ River Rouge - 42 19 25 n 83 07 24 w - Manxman - Sunderland England - 54 54 48 n 01 24 35 w - Stella Polaris - Kuzura Japan - 35 01 17 n 138 52 46 e - Maid of the Mist - Niagara Falls - 43 05 09 n 79 04 20 w - Soviet Sub - Long Beach California - 33 45 11 n 118 11 28 w - Minghua - Shekou China - 22 29 10 n 113 54 42 e - Tuxedo Princess - Hartlepool England - 54 41 23 n 01 12 21 w - U 505 U-Boat - Chicago Illinois - 41 47 26 n 87 34 54 w - USS Mercy - San Diego California - 32 41 06 n 117 08 01 w - USS Olympia - Philadelphia Pen - 39 56 37 n 75 08 28 w - RMS Titanic - Atlantic Ocean - 41 43 32 n 49 56 49 w - SS Nomadic - Paris France - 48 51 42 n 02 17 36 e
TALL SHIPS
- SS Great Briton - Bristol England - 51 26 57 n 02 35 29 w - USS Constitution - Boston Massachusetts - 42 22 20 n 71 63 23 w - (2) - New York New York - 40 42 18 n 74 00 11 w - (1) - Philadelphia Pen - 39 56 32 n 75 08 27 w - (1) - Philadelphia Pen - 39 56 19 n 75 08 28 w - Bluenose 2 - Halifax Nova Scotia - 44 38 51 n 63 34 10 w - (1) - Honolulu Hawaii - 21 18 20 n 157 51 53 w - HMS Warrior - 50 47 53 n 01 06 33 w - HMS Victory - 50 48 06 n 01 06 34 w - Mary Rose (Inside building) - 50 48 08 n 01 06 31 w - HMS Trincomalee - 54 41 25 n 01 12 54 w
US Mothball Fleet
- Newport News - 37 07 14 n 76 38 39 w - Benicia Ca.- 38 04 07 n 122 05 58 w - Beaumont Tx - 30 01 36 n 94 01 05 w
Will she be in good enough condition to be moved? Hope so, time does take its toll, but she is strong and was built well, thus she should stand up to it!
Laksamana,
The SS France/Norway WAS strong. There are several others here besides you, who continue to say how well built she is and that she is strong enough to withstand the strain of rising and falling with the tide. She WAS built strong...over 40 years ago. Time and more importantly, the boiler explosion, have taken their toll on her hull and she is NOT as strong as you think. If she is allowed to rise and fall with the tide until December 4th, she will most likely, have incurred great hull damage and may be too fragile, without costly repairs, to refloat to Dubai. A few more weeks of rising and falling will doom her to the cutters torch...if she isn't there already.
Thanks Sky King for this explaination. I'm not a structure engineer, but I understand that the hull was designed to stand pressure at sea, not going up and down and resting on the ground half of the time.
Thanks very much for your post with google eart location, it works very well and very fast ! Though i don't recognise Norway, how did you guess ? Also, I don't recognise the Big U are you sure it's the good ship ?
About the strenght of the Hull only a engineer, French engineer who had worked in the late 50's in St Nazaire would be a reliable opinion I think.
Right now, we must continue the fight to preserve the Norway's memory by saving the SS United States.
While I am in 100% complete agreement on efforts to save an icon of our nation; I can't help but wonder how long it will take for an NCL apologist to once again remind us that her fate rests with the solvency of NCL. I will do anything and everything within reason and my own rather meager capabilities to help in this noble cause; but I DISTINCTLY draw the line at lifting a finger or spending a dime to help NCL/NCLA/Star in that effort. Yes I know, my piddling contribution is not going to amount to a grain of sand in the Sahara of monies they consider; but our school does cruise EVERY year, and we take with us approximately 100 passengers. I've talked them out of going NCL last year, and will continue to do so. I despise them with every fiber of my body. May the spirits of Poseidon, Neptune, the S/S Norway (may her memory always remain afloat) and all the fates that be bring upon their ignoble heads exactly what they deserve.
That said, I do think measures could be advanced through other channels to see if the effort bears potential, although I'm never going to set myself up for the heartbreak those maggots put us trough in the saga of the S/S Norway. Our cruises will be with Carnival or RCCL, (wish Cunard had a ship down here). They say that fashion is fickle, and style is like a pendulum that swings back and forth. I know it will not be in my day; but I dearly hope that for posterity's sake, there will come a time when there will be a revival of appreciation for these masterful crafts with their sleek hull designs and purpose; and that one day, ONE DAY, there will be once again a demand for ships that LOOK LIKE SHIPS instead of some of these god-forsaken FUGLY, tacky, gaudy, floating barges. For the time being, there will doubtless continue to be a market for these floating Las Vegas resorts, but I trust that at some time in the perhaps distant future, taste and appreciation for a masterpiece will swing back and folks will look back at what we had, and the callous manner in which we disposed of them, and say in disgust, "What WHERE they thinking?"... and those who know the answer will probably be long gone, the answer: self-indulgence and the almighty dollar. In a way one cannot blame a corporate entity for seeking what it was founded to do in the first place, and that is make a profit off the running market; but one can certainly hold them accountable for utterly unacceptable actions they may have taken in said pursuit.
God preserve the SSUS and deliver her from the hands of the pernicious cutthroats that are currently holding her hostage. I remain disheartened, and yet not without hope this is still an achievable goal.
A2K
Posts: 166 | Location: New Orleans | Registered: April 14, 2006
Also, I don't recognise the Big U are you sure it's the good ship ?
Yes, Tama... that is indeed the Big U. Blue funnel tops fading and exposing yellow underpaint, with faded green decking. Time and the elements have taken their toll. I drive by on my way to work in Philadelphia when I can, and pause to marvel. The view of the superstructure and stacks is particularly impressive when you drive from the south, up Columbus Boulevard from the Walt Whitman bridge. Truly awe-inspiring to me.
(...and I get a little queazy these days, knowing who owns her and determines her fate!!)
It seems as if almost everyone has, like me, "thrown in the towel"" and given up on saving the SS France/Norway. She's pretty much reached the point of no return and I am very sad for that as this is now the death sentence for a beautiful ship. The Indian Supreme Court should be ashamed of themselves for the way they've handled this situation. The whole world now sees them as the spineless, corrupt, jellyfish they really are. They allowed the scrappers to continue to drag her ashore even after THEY issued a no scrapping order. I guess the Indian Supreme Court members are no more then bribe-able figureheads. NCL should also be ashamed of the way this all played out for the SS France/Norway. I for one, will never cruise with them again. I have 2 friends who each own travel agencies, one in Stamford, Conn. and the other in Boston, Ma. Although they currently do BIG business for NCL, they both have agreed to de-list NCL from their offerings should the SS United States be assigned to the scrap yards....so take notice NCL !!! I wish the SS France/Norway fair winds and following seas, as she now heads down the corridors of time, to join the other great liners of long ago voyages.
Also, I don't recognise the Big U are you sure it's the good ship ?
Yes, Tama... that is indeed the Big U. Blue funnel tops fading and exposing yellow underpaint, with faded green decking. Time and the elements have taken their toll. I drive by on my way to work in Philadelphia when I can, and pause to marvel. The view of the superstructure and stacks is particularly impressive when you drive from the south, up Columbus Boulevard from the Walt Whitman bridge. Truly awe-inspiring to me.
(...and I get a little queazy these days, knowing who owns her and determines her fate!!)
thanks - I still even don't see the funnel. For the Norway , some may give up it seems natural - what power do we have to make thing change now ?
Sorry, sorry, sorry. Don't know how the heck I got those co-ordinates for the SS United States. How 'bout trying 39 55 06 n 75 08 11 w . Probably would do a whole lot better, and in fact you'll probably even see her stacks. Again sorry.
Sorry, sorry, sorry. Don't know how the heck I got those co-ordinates for the SS United States. How 'bout trying 39 55 06 n 75 08 11 w . Probably would do a whole lot better, and in fact you'll probably even see her stacks. Again sorry.
I was afraid to get crazy, it does indeed look more like him ! Thanks
Greetings from across the San Francisco Bay in CA. As an agent with my own company, I read in a travel agent magazine that as of August or September she was suppose to be sent to Singapore for scrapping completely. Because of her former damage after the blast that put a hole in her hull, they couldn't figure out whether she was worth saving for a hotel or pulling apart for materials. Very sad since she is one of the most famous and most beautiful of the old ships around.
Posts: 1 | Location: San Pablo, CA | Registered: September 09, 2006
It seems as if almost everyone has, like me, "thrown in the towel"" and given up on saving the SS France/Norway. She's pretty much reached the point of no return and I am very sad for that as this is now the death sentence for a beautiful ship.
I'm sorry but I really can't find myself agreeing with these sort of sentiments. While it is sad that she is on a beach, I will submit to this forum that it is not the Supreme Court who is sentencing the ship to death, but rather her own supporters who consider abandoning her cause at every smokescreen and obstacle which our opponents present.
The simple truth is that those who wish to see Norway scrapped depend on US to let them. This is a big legal case, going back a number of years, and alleging a great many violations of Indian Law, International Law, and of the orders of the Apex court as well. I, for one, am GLAD that the justices are TAKING THEIR TIME to review all pertinent issues in the case instead of rushing through it. Remember how the saying goes, "the longer the jury's out, the better the chances for acquittal".
Waiting until december for Judgement is GOOD, because it means they are TALKING with other members of the government to asses how best to proceed. This case isn't just about the ship, it's about the job market, India's steel industry (both recycled and produced), India's economy, wage laws, and ultimately cuts through to the deepest social concerns of Indian society with issues such as health care, educational opportunities, and caste. Not an easy matter, nor could it be decided in a short while.
Now while I certainly agree that the explosion damaged certain bulkheads within the aft engine room, I have seen no documentation (including repair estimates from 3 yards) that would indicate any sort of major damage to the hull's integrity or the keel. Were this the case, she would not have been insured while being towed, because no insurance company is going to front the bill for a severely-damaged hull rupture (think USS Cole, which had to be "carried" back home. Norway's damage is nothing like that). The stresses on the hull of sitting on a beach are very minor compared to that of sailing the Atlantic, and as posted before, would even be less than being in dry dock.
If you don't believe me then I offer the example of SS Great Britain, which sat on a beach near Port Stanley/Puerto Argentino from 1937 to 1970, when this 1845-built ship was re-floated and towed back to the UK. AND YOU GUYS ARE TELLING ME THERE'S NO HOPE FOR NORWAY, BUILT AS ONE OF THE STRONGEST HULLS EVER IN 1962?
Please.
Now there is not one single source or report with any account that she has been moved further up the beach to the "point of no return", or that any cutting has started, in violation of the Court's injunction. That's a sure-fire way for them to lose the case, I don't think they'll do is UNLESS PUBLIC OPINION AGAINST THEM DISSAPEARS.
Folks, once the spotlight is off, and greenpeace/bani runs out of money to prosecute the case, it's all over. We are just as much a part of this issue in the ship's future as the scrappers are. To be quite honest it really ticks me off when people pledge to support something that will be hard-fought and then just quit at the 3rd or 4th obstacle when there's really no indication of faliure. Too many people have contributed too much of their own time, money, efforts, and in some cases their health and reputation as well, for this to all the support to just "vanish" into nothing when we finally get what we want:
A FRIGGIN DAY IN COURT!!!
Now if you think I'm beating a dead horse then you're welcome think that, but I would hope that before people start throwing in the towel based on this or that or the other thing, the would cite a reputable source of the information on which they based their decision.
