Ah that old chesnut potentially if Jan Olav reveals the information from a source close to either party that is seen a prejudicial to the process then you wind up with legal problems around unfair commericial advantage. It can be a deal breaker so is standard business practice to keep th people who know quiet for the time being. Often it gives the impression of siding with a particular party. I don't know Jan Olav personally but am willing to cut him some slack as he has always been a supporter of Norway. There nothing worse than supporting something and being talked down by people when you are just unable to comment...I do it a lot at work, it sucks but goes with the territory.

Cheers,

Mike

So far off topic you'll need a map but a couple of them are funny!

http://www.ask-boatcat.com/Boat-Jokes.html

quote:

Originally posted by Redlinekid2:
Atlantic109,
From an inside source, I was told that if the Breakers decide to BEACH the Norway before a court decision, they would not only be charged with violating a court order, but the FINES that they will impose on the Scrappers will run in the millions of US Dollars.

Hey Dan.... I sure hope your inside source is correct. My gut instinct ('cause I have no facts to go on) is that the SC will only provide a "slap on the hand" fine. My suspicion would be that most of the "fine-paying" will be under the table to various SC members and other politicians.

But your positive outlook keeps me going!!

Marty

Thanks for the touch of levity Mike!

I dunno; perhaps I'm reading that article from the Herald wrongly; but this paragraph sends up red flags all over the place:

quote:

"The court said the Blue Lady, formerly the S.S. France, could anchor off Alang for the safety of its crew after it entered Indian waters. It is expected to rule on Dec. 4 whether the ship entered India legally and whether it can be dismantled at Alang, Krishna told The Associated Press."

Now maybe I'm just missing something; but does anyone at all really believe they're going to just let that ship sit there till DECEMBER?

I tend to agree with Marty. My "gut" instincts are telling me this is less than an old French "farce" we are witnessing. We're all watching what is actually an "IM"morality play being played out to the limit. IF the scrappers thought for a minute they'd be fined MORE than they would get by pulling her in--that just doesn't make any business sense at all, wouldn't happen. We may be TOLD they were fined umpteen million; but I'd wager like so much we've had to endure thus far, this would only be yet another smoke screen to cover up their nefarious back-door activities.

Are any folks trying to wire the SC and call on them to make good on some sort of court-ordered injunction? Because I truly feel this next tide will the last hurrah--one way or the other.

A2K

quote:

I only hope that the courts makes a decision before Friday.

If the scrappers had no intention of selling the ship to Dubai, then why are they still negotiating with them to begin with?

Any proof that they are still negotiating??? Or even still around???

quote:

Originally posted by Audrey2Katrina:
I dunno; perhaps I'm reading that article from the Herald wrongly; but this paragraph sends up red flags all over the place:

quote:

"The court said the Blue Lady, formerly the S.S. France, could anchor off Alang for the safety of its crew after it entered Indian waters. It is expected to rule on Dec. 4 whether the ship entered India legally and whether it can be dismantled at Alang, Krishna told The Associated Press."

A2K

I think maybe what they're talking about is the different stages of the legal process. Kinda like when someone gets tried for murder, you hear that first they're arraigned, then they get indicted, then there's jury selection, then the actual trial, the defentant pleads, porsecution presents its case, defense presents its case, motions are heard and ruled on sometimes, then the jury comes back with a veredict, and if it's guilty then the next step is sentencing, etc etc etc. It doesn't all get scheduled to happen in the same day, for obvious reasons, so I don't think it's logical that the Norway case is different in that respect - obviously the court has many cases to deal with and this is just one of them.

I think then what they're talking about in the article is what would equal a final "veredict" in the case, to whom the claimant is Ban Asbestos Now and the respondant I guess is the scrap merchant. The suit was filed originally on the grounds that the import was illegal (i.e. the "larger" issue) not because the court erred in the application of the law, but because the respondent gave the court innacurate or deceitful information (which they can then "pass the buck" on to Stars i.e. "we don't know nothing about no asbestos man").

The motion that we're waiting for them to rule on currently, i.e. the "immediate" issue, is a motion brought forward by Gopal Krishna of BANi within that suit, reporting to the court the beaching of the ship and challenging its legality based on the court's last instructions. The motion also challenged the validity of the original technical report. But this is only a motion that is part of the larger case. I think most of us (myself included) would be very glad if they'd hurry up and try the case already, but it's not strange for a court to stretch it out like this.

I really don't think this is a cause for concern. The current motion is the same motion on which the "hands-off" order was given, and that order was given pending a ruling on the motion. If the court determines the move was illegal, it could order the ship refloated. In any case, I think the upcoming judgement will be a very good indicator of how the court will rule on Dec.4, and I think that since the court has already ruled in our side's favor upon the filing of the motion then we probably have a good chance of success.

As for the fines...I hope this is true. Nothing better to prevent a company from operating illegally than to make their cost of illegal operation greater than any profit they could hope to get.

quote:

Hey Dan.... I sure hope your inside source is correct. My gut instinct ('cause I have no facts to go on) is that the SC will only provide a "slap on the hand" fine. My suspicion would be that most of the "fine-paying" will be under the table to various SC members and other politicians.

Hi,
With everyone watching this case, it'll be very tough for the Supreme Court to say yes to the breakup of the ship. It would go against the laws that they enacted regarding the decontamination of the ship before it's allowed to be broken up.

If the idea was to give the scrappers a slap-fine, then why did they even bother to sign the various treaties that's recognized by the global community. This is certainly a VERY BIG test to see if they will carry out their obigations. The Indian Goverment is watching the outcome as well.

If the courts decides to give the green light on the breakup of the Norway, that would give future shipping companies an excuse to dump their toxic ships to India's backyard, since they won't do anything but give a very small fine to the violators. And expect more foreign companies to make the same excuses as well.

If they don't make an example of those involved with the current status of the ship in Alang, then India will have a dark cloud over their heads for quite a while.

And the situation with the Norway is having an indirect effect on Star Cruises bottom line. They have lost close to $50 Milllion this year alone because they passenger bookings has declined dreastically ever since their decision to scrap the Norway began.

I would think that Star Cruises would be better off taking back the ship from the scrappers and sell it to Dubai at a nice profit and FIX their bottom line.

It's way too long for the courts to make a decision of Dec. 4, 2006. I had hoped that it would come sooner than that, since the Technical Report was submitted on Aug. 31, which was last week. It doesn't take that long to make a decision.

Personally, I can't understand what's so hard about saying NO to the scrappers interest and taking the Norway out of its territory. Why do they feel the need to drag this soap opera on than it has to be? It's getting old. I am hoping for a happy ending. But that is becoming quite rare as the days and weeks pass by.

If the scrappers can buy off the courts to work in their favor, why can't Dubai use it to their advantage as well? Lobbying always seems to provide the best results. If Dubai wants the ship, then they should be doing everything in their power to make sure that things go their way, for the sake of the health of the Alang workers.

I said in one of my earlier posts that I felt the the Indian SC would "sit it out" regarding the SS France/Norway and wait until it's too late to save her, before making a decision. I STILL feel that way...especially after reading of a possible delay in a decision until December 4. Do they really think the ship will last that long in such shallow waters ??
In spite of what some have written, she IS damaged from the boiler explosion in 2003 and WON'T last long riding on and off the sea bed. There is no power on board...hence no bilge pump action and I'm sure she is slowly filling with water...something the scrappers don't want to have happen as it will make her tougher to drag ashore. They aren't going to wait much longer...fine or no fine.
The Indian SC is not willing, in my opinion, to take a stance. I feel they fear public reprisals should the SS France/Norway be turned away. They don't want to be blamed for hurting the Indian economy. So they are just going to wait until it's too late.
In all honesty I hope I'm wrong, but I feel that this beautiful ship will see very few more days, as a complete ship.

Dan, I envy you your persistent optimist--it's a good thing and I wish I could share in it!

That said, the reason for a Dec. 4 decision could well be much as Alex has explained--Lots of processes involved. Also, it seems this decision is NOT really to decide on whether the ship is to be, or can be broken; but it's to decide if she entered Indian waters illegally--I think they'll review the breaking prospect secondarily, which is why I feel the way I do. Given that scenario, the pulling her in further and even beginning of "dismantling" can be begun with impunity (you can BET that committee didn't do anything to change their decision--maybe a lot more of CYA a little better, but the decision will be the same, of that I am convinced--they've been bought off IMO--done deal. The propert brokers, as we've seen already have their contracts in hand and are wringing their hands at the lucrative prospects.) All the December decision will amount to is a, hate to say it again, but "slap on the wrist" for having brought it into Indian waters illegally (MAYBE--who else knows whose been bought off?) As far as any "embarrassment" I think that's the last thing these clowns are worried about, although if they had an ounce of PR sense, they'll make a good show of outrage, and promise that FROM THERE ON, all ships MUST be properly detoxed--letting the Norway sort of be "grandfathered" in after the fact. Of course all this is speculation based on my own instincts.

But I DO admire your tenacity, and pray God all that optimism reaps further hope and reward.

A2K

Okay, I see Sky King has hit the "Post Now" button before I got in there; but pretty much shares the same views. I, too, wish it would be different; but I must say I am much of the same opinion--which isn't one of much regard for either the Indian SC, and the owners of the ship, current, and past.

*sigh*

A2K

Here is a link that's worth reading:

http://au.news.yahoo.com/060906/19/10fil.html

At the end of the story, a noted shipbreaker claims that only 5 scrappers have little regard for the safety of their workers. Unfortunately, the scrapper who owns the Norway is one of them.

Oh yes, I've read in several places that this particular company/individual is lower than a snake's belly in a wheel rut, and about as attractive as the slime trail behind a salted slug. Despicable would be several steps UP in the chain of decency. This is another reason many have given up what hopes they've held for the ship. This cretin is hell-bent that he's going to break this ship and nothing--least of all Indias JOKE of a SC will stop him. Incidentally, on other forums I've seen that what I'd already alluded to above appears to be true. They will decide in December whether or not there was a violation on bringing her into Indian waters; but the permission to begin dismantling has already been cleared. I have no specific source to cite; but have heard it in a few circles.

Merry Christmas from the SC of India, Star Cruises/NCL... and of course, the slug who could care less.

A2K

Hi A2K,
From what I know, permission to break the ship hasn't been granted yet. The permission granted was by the Technical Committee in early August, which was illegal. So the TC recommendation was misinterpeted as the Supreme Court decision.

A little off topic but I found this site where you type in the name of a ship (without SS prefix) and it gives and shows its location.

http://www.sailwx.info/shiptrack/cruiseships.phtml

Give it a try. Cool time waister.

badridebutthead E.S.D. Ifind it hard to believe that the Norway is going to sit unmolested until a December decision. Why such a long wait? What is truly going on over there?

http://www.ashitshipping.com/alang4.htm


Some sad facts

Funny that they call the breaking locations 'Plots'....

indeed, they are graves...

Actually, now that I take a closer look at this, it lists Aug 15 as the beaching date... from what I recall, on Aug 15, our Norway/France was not what would normally be considered 'beached', so maybe this isn't such a bad sign!